http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6533

half way there
By philmusic

"..shouldn't we aspire to a different paradigm, one that is non-judgmental and all-inclusive—..."

Yes of course. Frank, I believe that many of my own posts relate to your description of the Hobbesian composition world.

The "new" kind of composer you describe would be beloved by all. (Or on the other hand perhaps considered a ninny). That is a composer who sees no difference between the public and private or the professional and the personal. That's hard. Other than you Frank I think Aaron J. Kernis comes close as he also supports styles of music other than his own.

For myself I think I got the sonic part mastered, yet when it comes to the people part--well that's another story. I have a hard time forgiving or forgetting.

Phil Fried No Sonic Prejudice

Teams
By philmusic

One thing

Sports teams do expect and require loyalty. Not to mention winning.

Phil Fried the sportsman's friend

Tuesday, August 24, 2010, 12:12:18 PM

individualism?
By philmusic

Its funny. You see when I first read your post Ryan--I thought the exact opposite from Matthew.

There is no individuality to Lady Gaga and her ilk Rather she is merely this year's picture on a postage stamp.

Phil Fried Phil's just like everyone else page

___________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6531

political complications
By philmusic

Really there is;

Music

lyrics (optional)

editorial (what the composers and others have to say about the work or their interpretation of it)

the title

the composer's intentions (the privileged editorial)

The fact is after composition a musical work has a life of its own.

It can be used by anyone for or against anything.

Phil Fried Who sang the international with striking workers at the Bastille -a professional high light!

Phil's not very political page

Friday, August 20, 2010, 10:28:09 PM

dive in...
By philmusic

It seems that the discussion here is not about politics at all but about the ability of text setting composers to accomplish their intentions. Sometimes those intentions are political. There are many ways to set a text. The fact that we prefer a particular type of setting does not make the other types wrong.

We need more art and if some is political so be it. I want to see more GLTB characters and situations in song and story. Not just stereotypes. War too. Wherever the artist wants to go is fine with me.

Certainly protest art does not stop with Picasso, nor is irony, especially the mis-fired kind (that is Janus faced), the only approach. Social Realism anyone?

At one time there was a forbidden "devil's interval" the fact that there is not one now does not mean that it won't be back in some form. Rather it predicts that transmuted it will return.

Perhaps it's here already.

Phil Fried

Phil's page  Saturday, August 21, 2010, 12:21:58 PM

no need to go negative
By philmusic

"..Is not the music of a gnarly academic composer, say Charles Wuorinen, ..."

Didn't you say that all compositional choices were political? Then your singling out the above composer is merely gratuitous.

Oh I forget that for the current style police its always open season on serial composers.

Phil Fried No Sonic Prejudice

Phil's politics is local page

Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:47:17 PM

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6524

Ah.. Show Biz
By philmusic

One of the challenges of working with or for untrained musicians and others is that you can do what they want but they can't explain what they want. At least in common practice terms you can understand. Many times the vision is completely arbitrary. If you point that out your toast.

So sometimes they seek out artistic "types" to fill the bill. So, many times they will jettison a trained person and use someone else who knows exactly what they want before they what it (those folks might then sub contract to you).

There is also, unfortunately, sometimes a need to show who is boss. This is done by leaving you guessing the instructions.

For this kind of work one must hone one's political and social skills.

Phil Fried Phil's type o' page

_______________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6522

new music theater
By philmusic

I think Cory and Matt are a strand of where new music theater is going.

I look forward to it.

Phil's page

_____________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6520

the inner and outer world
By philmusic

Ok lets measure success in three's:

How does the composer feel about their music?

What does the professional world feel about their music?

What does the public feel about their music?

How these strands are reconciled might reveal the answer, yet there are those who look but cannot see.

This is either because nothing is ever enough or they view themselves through a twisted mirror.

Phil Fried Phil's very successful page

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6512

chicken soup for the composer
By philmusic

Um, David it seems that your means of judging composers is by their ability to get performances alone.

This seems a tad simplistic. I know many composers who have good work, myself included, that have never been performed. This was not necessarily because of design, but because the composer can't get a break.

Phil Fried

Phil's eye wide shut page

no disrespect
By philmusic

in a nutshell
By philmusic

"...Those that want a career the most... do whatever ... is necessary. ..."

Pretty much.

Phil Fried

Phil's careerist page

_________________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6519

 By philmusic

is conscious of form being engendered by the material, motivic development, counterpoint...

There are many difference's between the approach of being a composer and a songwriter or even an arranger some pretty technical (forms, the use of transitions etc.).

This much is true; that in popular music and jazz counterpoint is mostly heterophonic based (weaves around the harmony) but in classical music strict species counterpoint the harmony is the result of the counterpoint. Does that mean that strict counterpoint is incompatible with popular music? I was in such a band "Jordan Kaplan".

I suppose you Joelle know that Stockhausen was on the cover of Rolling Stone.

Phil's transitional page

of songs and songwriting
By philmusic

"..Your question makes as little sense ..."

Songwriting is a very particular approach to creating songs. Elton John and Schubert both wrote songs but there is a difference in their approach. The fact that you don't understand or wish to ignore that difference does not make the question go away.

Phil Fried Phil Fried

Now that you mention it.
By philmusic

Yes. Generally speaking. There can be.

Phil Fried Phil's music lesson page

some crafty thoughts
By philmusic

"...songwriting and composing, two apples from the same orchard..."

I can't agree.

I thought the point was about a songwriter who was not taken seriously in a college situation because of their lack of compositional background. You misunderstand if you think that this is a value judgment. Rather in order to navigate the problem you have to understand the differences in order to reconcile them.

Isn't that being "craft-aware"?

Its too easy to say these differences don't exist especial when many music teachers and songwriters feel that they do and present their curriculum to reflect it.

Phil's nit pick'in page

ghost with the most
By philmusic

"...the writing credit for "Single Ladies" goes to Beyoncé Knowles, Terius "The-Dream" Nash, Thaddis "Kuk Harrell" Harrell, and Christopher "Tricky" Stewart. On the other hand, Stefani Germanotta (i.e. Lady Gaga) and Nadir Khayat were responsible for LG's "Bad Romance..."

Excellent point Colin and yet another difference in approach between songwriting and composition.

There is something else though. Many songs are not composed by the credited authors as they are ghost written. That is the song and the rights are bought in a private cash sale.

The number of uncredited contributors to popular music is quite large I think and we only hear about them when they sue.

This too; many times the true authors of a song are hidden for a time. For example the Doors songs were originally published as by the Doors but now we know which band member wrote which song.

Phil Fried Phil's page of mystery

It would seem that NMB is featuring posts that seem only to apply tp newbies-this is a mistake as folks of all types of backgrounds and experiences read the blogs. The neat and tidy view of the musical world is political and untrue.  Being a professor obviously means towing a political line, yet this leaves unsaid the many advantages and gratuities that a university position gives.  That is performance opportunities.

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6511

By philmusic

There is already so much "intelligent art" that happily exists (and has existed for years) outside of "classical music education" - I'm just confused as to what you are looking for that isn't already there?

I have to agree with Chris here. Musical skill is not just the reserve of classical music.

Neither is seriousness.

Phil Fried

Phil's very serious page

 ______________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6513

Oh yes
By philmusic

Its no coincidence that the Taliban not only repressed art but destroyed it when they were in power.

Open ears and eyes might suggest an open mind.

Phil Fried, no sonic prejudice

Phil's open mided page

_________________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6512

chicken soup for the composer
By philmusic

Um, David it seems that your means of judging composers is by their ability to get performances alone.

This seems a tad simplistic. I know many composers who have good work, myself included, that have never been performed. This was not necessarily because of design, but because the composer can't get a break.

Phil Fried

Phil's eye wide shut page

no disrespect
By philmusic

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6508

first peoples
By philmusic

Melodrama has been around for some time, not just in film, but in the many works created for schools by AIR's (artists in residence).

What you seem to be talking about might also involve native cultures, or first peoples. In my small experience with Native Cultures, as a teacher, there is a wide differential of their interest in outsiders (sorry) covering their materials. Some but not all can get, understandably, pretty exclusive about it. On the other hand you can't expect to please everyone.

It can work. I suggest you explore partnerships-see what happens.

Phil Fried

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6499

2 answers
By philmusic

exploits the tactile experience of actually composing rather than entering music, ..."

To me composition is about refection-straight from the fingers in real time is improvisation. For that reason, at least for me, there will always be a need to enter notes.

When Aaron Kernis told me about Sibelius it solved my learning disability in a flash. It used to take me one day to notate one page of music say between 6-8 bars--that is to make the clean copy. Then I always made the noteheads too small. I had to make a sketch too and sometimes I could not read my own manuscript. Computers solved that problem. Now its true my sketch and my final copy are the same (well no) but the time I save means more music.

That is liberating.

Phil Fried Phil's I also taught myself to make web pages page

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6494

Actualy he didn't get the joke .

say what????
By philmusic

"...A healthy life helps to create healthy art..."

So much for potato chips.

Phil's I buy my organic food at the co-op page

bingo
By philmusic

"..And chips (for me especially corn chips, but NO guacamole) are clearly conducive to mental health..."

Ah, you got the joke. As many of us know humor is an excellent way to keep healthy.

Phil's as long as you mention it pretty funny page

hardly
By philmusic

Sorry if I missed the boat, but are we now making lists of composers whose music we like?

Nope. I think that Mclaren is playing a game of "fantasy composer" and with hindsight is picking all the winners.

Phil's page for losers

 ______________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6498

the scold from the cold
By philmusic

"...Maybe American composers born toward the end of the 20th century will ultimately be deemed collaborators or capitulators, implicated in some now-acceptable moral crime...."

One notices that today an entire musical scene can be co-opted and history rewritten by money and power. (I believe this was first done in a different context by the Blues Brothers).

Besides that corruption is seen in the small things like; the quid pro quo (only helping those who can help you), the expectation of the trappings of success, the my team right or wrong, the maintaining exclusivity all the while acting as if the world, or a blog, is a free and open place. Ignoring fair play for gamesmanship. Self interest and politics coming before art. Anytime ambition is personal and not artistic. Inhabiting a persona that does not belong to you that you know will sell. That is creating the an avatar of an "artist."

Did I leave something out?

Phil's how to be an outsider in 3 easy lessons page

a point of reflection
By philmusic

I suppose Colin if you want to argue that Wagner was merely a careerist trying to get ahead then we are "all" guilty. I thought, for all his musical abilities, he was just a person of his time.

Then again most of us are.

Phil Fried Phil's Fried Text

It looks like I am an optimist  

 "..I think that creativity needs to come from a place of awareness about the world and a realistic notion of art's relatively humble position in the grand scheme of things..."

Who's world?

In my world art is the most important thing.

Then again, I'm not a professor of music.

 Phil's  very unreal page

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6492

 COMPLACENCY KILLS

simple question hard answers
By philmusic

What is the best course of action to engage children in art?

Thanks for bringing this up Joelle. Us folks in the children's education biz are facing a lot of challenges these days. These include:

Survival

The no child left behind law is killing arts education. How? By law the arts are not mandated only increasing test scores. So we are being sacrificed to the false premise that less art means more time for study - means higher test scores. See here Phil's other blog an here Phil's other other blog

The disconnect between those who formulate education policy and and those who must implement it. Right now the move is to marginalize educationalists and move to business models (this persists even though business almost did our country in). I'm afraid mostly for union busting.

Financial and political. As education now is the biggest item in state budgets, as welfare once was, we now see the search for the unremoveble "bad teacher" as the new "welfare Cadillac." In addition money starved districts have to deal with self interested donors with axes to grind. Sad to say that the Gates foundation in particular does not support the arts. Others are strictly anti union and anti teacher. Finding good arts teachers and keeping them is not done on the cheep especially when they are out of the loop of test score productivity raises.

Besides the above the answer to your question is simple; a caring, trained, professional arts teacher in the classroom doing their job.

Dr. Phil Fried Phil's page

Monday, July 19, 2010, 4:26:41 PM

If only
By philmusic

".. I think the greatest advocate for music is musicians...."

Robin, in the case of Saint Paul Public Schools, a highly rated district, the advice of musicians, musical experts, and their research, was ignored in the gutting of the elementrary music programs.

Principals lose their jobs if test scores don't improve. So the arts are being sacrificed for a mistaken short term gain.

Phil's page

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6485

thats change for you
By philmusic

Joelle:

In my day, it seems so long ago, theoretical editorial was used to explain art. Now it seems that art merely exists as editorial to explain theory.

Oddly folks are much more accepting of experimental writing than of music. Many folks who shun atonal music love Joyce and Stein (who notable never spoke to each other).

Phil "Methuselah" Fried Phil's very old page

Monday, July 12, 2010, 11:10:42 AM

ok on topic
By philmusic

"..does our new lack of a dominant cultural logic means that "genuine difference [cannot] be measured or assessed?"

It seems that with the above statement one must suppose that art stops today at 4:30.

Since that does not or will ever happen one might conclude that the world of art is not standing still and is constantly being created and recreated. Cannon notwithstanding.

So, for each generation, (not to mention each scene) the logic of measurement and assessment changes.

Phil Fried

Phil's on topic page

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6485

thats change for you
By philmusic

Joelle:

In my day, it seems so long ago, theoretical editorial was used to explain art. Now it seems that art merely exists as editorial to explain theory.

Oddly folks are much more accepting of experimental writing than of music. Many folks who shun atonal music love Joyce and Stein (who notable never spoke to each other).

Phil "Methuselah" Fried Phil's very old page

Monday, July 12, 2010, 11:10:42 AM

ok on topic
By philmusic

"..does our new lack of a dominant cultural logic means that "genuine difference [cannot] be measured or assessed?"

It seems that with the above statement one must suppose that art stops today at 4:30.

Since that does not or will ever happen one might conclude that the world of art is not standing still and is constantly being created and recreated. Cannon notwithstanding.

So, for each generation, (not to mention each scene) the logic of measurement and assessment changes.

Phil Fried

Phil's on topic page

 ____________________________________________________________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6489

a different view
By philmusic

"...The list of anomalous compositions that were lambasted by their peers and yet eventually found their way into the canon is a large and illustrious..."

I'm not sure that being lambasted by one's peers is the same as being wrong. They did not recant. Did they?

Rather I like to think that they were creating answers to questions that no one else had even imagined.

Phil Fried Phil's page

Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 10:24:14 AM

clarification
By philmusic

Rather I like to think that they were creating answers to questions that no one else had even imagined.

In a word imagination.

Phil Fried Phil's page

chenker sore
By philmusic

"...how DO we teach the rules when the musical examples we use to teach them are made up entirely of exceptions?...

Armondo I believe it was Heinrich Schenker who first drew a distinction between the teaching of "theory" and of "practice" or what he called free composition. You might want to look there.

Phil Fried Phil's low budget theory page

guide for the perplexed
By philmusic

".. Do you want to bring a particular line into the foreground? Use parallel octaves..." .

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment, but I believe that there is a difference between octave doublings and parallel octaves.

The emphasis created by octave doubling is orchestrational not harmonic so they are in no way related.

Phil Fried Phil's well orchestrated page

_______________________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6488

A long post
By philmusic

This is an odd one for me. As you know I abhor sectarianism and have written about the destructive nature of "teams". I have been identified as a "downtown" composer but my motto "no sonic prejudice" is inclusive. No style police here.

As for masks historically there have been composers and writers who have created work that they published under pseudonyms to make it distinct from their "own" work. Mostly no one was the wiser. Some went to the trouble of claiming their works were from the famous dead they newly discovered etc. etc.

For myself, my one and only commercial recording (finally created when I was 51) is of a work from when I was 17 that I did a little reworking. It is not very representative of my work which is mostly vocal and opera and yes, serial. Melville's Dozen

Though not my main line this fits into my educational work and I think that most composers of our time create work for many different contexts.

Perhaps I exaggerate that fact. The main bulk of my work (opera) has not been heard as of yet and the works to be found here: youtube thisby1 do not include my serial or 12-tone work as of yet.

Since I don't hide my authorship I see my range as expressing my many moods. To wear a mask is not always to hide ones identity. Some times its needed to create a focal point for exaggeration

Phil Fried Phil's Page

_______________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6490

an easy teach of bad programing
By philmusic

My problem with Forte and Straus is that the approach seems created for one reason--easy to teach and easy to test.

The basis for this was the computer revolution and the interest in statistical modeling of music years ago. When computers came onto the stage academics threw everything, that is every kind of music, into the mix to see what computer programs could make of them.

Needless to say nothing stuck except for atonal/serial music where numbers have a certain presence, even though Schoenberg's rows are letters, not numbers.

Math is straightforward to teach and understand and yes test. Fortunately there are many other ways to look at music.

Phil Fried, who prefers Perle and Slonimsky.

Phil's page

I have to say all this talk about aactivity on NMB does so without drawing a distinction between an activity and its significance. That is artistic significance.

Activity to advance one's career can political significance, even create institutions, yet the fact remains that that has no guarantee of any artistic significance at all. Sadley, activity can maintain mediocity as bad music drives out the good.

http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6412

Honesty
By philmusic

"...Get reciprocal arrangements made ahead of time..."

I would like to thank Dennis for being so honest about the Quid Pro Quo so rampant in the new music world.

When programing by all means self interest first.

Phil Fried Phil's very self interested page

 ____________________

http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6410

well..
By philmusic

"..creating art for a living is a selfish indulgence..."

Only if you make it so. One can be self indulgent in any profession.

Saying that all social workers care is like saying that all artists are creative.

Phil Fried Phil's page

may I disagree?
By philmusic

"... While it's true we're not saving anyone's life, ..."

Music has saved many lives and given them direction and meaning. That I know as an elementary instrumental instructor. Its our job. For me being a composer/improviser/ teacher of children is all of a piece. So, I'm a little offended by the self-indulgent moniker Joelle, as well as David saying that he is a fraud.

Not to mention dragging Milton into this.

Phil Fried Phil's Page

_____________

 http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6404

wish fulfillment
By philmusic

When I read the quote Colin naturally I knew that I knew about arts. I get to be included as enlightened unlike them darn "others" (the sort of folks who would never read Bourdieu) who don't and will never get it. That is; In with the in crowd. Then again perhaps that is not my personal wish.

Yet it so much of this reminds me of EST Training (don't ask), "of experiencing the experience you experienced" which was a validation for whatever.

Still, there are those who do not accept the way the world is and at least in their small communities try to change it.

Phil Fried Phil's page

I'll say..
By philmusic

Thanks Pgblue--my kind of post.

"..positioning himself as a victim.."

Certainly he is not the only highly successful composer to try this gambit. One could name many many more (as your right it does work) but I still want to work in this town. (lol)

One might think this pure gamesmanship and in some cases it is. Except that I know of many composers who find no satisfaction in any of their high achievements.

Especially if their colleagues and rivals do just as well.

Phil Fried Phil's page

______________________

 http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6401

By philmusic

You could go back further to the 60's Amon Duul, or Blue Cheer (outsides/insides) if you like. (I am sure there are many more)

"..this was the type of crowd that strikes me as what people twenty years ago hoped would become the future audience for classical music:

I think that the classical crowd had been making quite a few strides in the alternative space performance direction. It is certainly become more inclusive except for serial music (sigh). Yet there is something really liberating about very loud music that is not confluent with a classical concert.

On the other hand co-opting a "scene" is a social maneuver that is pretty hard to pull off. Besides coming off as a tourist being "cool" is not just about what you know its also about who you exclude.

Phil Fried Who remembers the 60's or was it the 70's?

to the alleged
By philmusic

"Sorry to harass you about this. I just sense some strong personal value"

Um why apologize--thats all you do.

As I remember the last time in my case "you" asked me several times to explain comments that I didn't make. Those referenced comments you made up your self. Putting words into peoples mouths then asking them to explain them. Well, I suppose its a step above spitballs.

Sure its cool to be a situationist. No doubt thats why you hide your identity.

Phil Fried Phil's Page

________________________

http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6408

Bravo Sondheim
By philmusic

No living American opera composer has the theatrical experience that Sondheim has. It shows doesn't it? (no pun here) Jealous? Certainly but Amazed as well. As long as your asking Sondheim's work does not usually feature the operatic voice in his original casts.

Belting yes Bel canto no.

This is not a criticism just the facts. Anyway City Opera has been successfully performing Broadway with operatic voices for some time.

Phil Fried, who is willing to overlook the lack of serial music performance this time. Didn't he study with Milton Babbitt?

more nuance please
By philmusic

I agree about the voice, as I said, and if you wish to disagree that a successful dramatic arc is irrelevant so be it. It is true that the forms are always in flux.

"It's a musical if you're pitching it to a producer, and it's an opera if you're applying for a grant."

I find that answer a little too pat and a little too condescending. There are many works in the opera rep that have commercial roots, sing-spiels like the Magic Flute. Also there are quite a few musicals that started out with grant support.

There might also be a difference between a composer's intentions and the actual results.

Phil Fried Phil's Page

As I said...
By philmusic

"...Sondheim's shows are musicals when they're done by musical theatre people, and operas when they're done by opera people..."

As I said before composers don't get to decide what an opera is.

Gate keepers and institutions do.

Phil Fried Phil's page

___________________

 http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6389

he best of all possible worlds..
By philmusic

"..I look forward to hearing the results of your work during the seasons ahead..."

Oh? Are you planing to program and pay for a performance of our music at your school?

Now that's a dream.

Phil Fried, operators are standing by...

Phil's Page

Cuff or Sausage?
By philmusic

"...While I can't program it, ..... send me links..."

Um.. if you just look above or below I don't think I'm hiding them.

Phil's very hidden valley ranch

_________

http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6381

remaining true
By philmusic

It's true that all composers share the possible result of either failure or success.

Yet not all composers share the same risks.

Phil Fried

Phil's Page

what "we" risk?
By philmusic

Making your music more ingratiating or adding theatrical gestures might up the "coolness factor" but it hardly constitutes risk, or a recipe for failure.

Phil Fried, Phil's risk free page

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6381

Yes failure can have many annealing properties.  Yet those results generally occur when risks are taken.   It's hard to understand what risk is involved in adding theatrical elements or making ones work more ingratiating.I chose to be true to my school.

Phil Fried  http://philfried.com

 I sent this more politic.

remaining true
By philmusic

It's true that all composers share the possible result of either failure or success.

Yet not all composers share the same risks.

Phil Fried

Phil's Page

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6377

A Motiv's day out
By philmusic

I went looking for my 0,1,6

he’d run off to get his kicks

I found him with a 2,4,8,

By then the hour was getting late.

They were staring at a 3,5,10

who claimed his Christian name was Ken

They started a row.

Soon they tore the place upside down.

7,9,11 was beginning to fade perhaps they all turn retrograde.

0,1 6 said if only I were in my prime.

Phil Fried all rights reserved, I mean it!

Phil's serious Page

_________________

 http://newmusicbox.com/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6375

Opera is not and never was a monolith. There are and have been many different and successful approaches to it over its history

The fact is I could say that an opera is a work based on other operas, with a knowledge and study of those works. "New Music Theater" on the other hand can be based on anything.

Anyway Opera companies have no rules on what they will or will not produce. So many things that are not strictly operas are presented as such.

(please note that I am not trying to create a value judgment here just trying to define different approaches)

Oddly it does seem that the folks who study the genre and compose in the operatic style and who would place music, voice, and character at the center of the experience are the ones who are least welcome these days. Then again if you compose a work that can only be performed by an opera company you start seeing the advantage of the new music theater approach. More flexibility for performance.

Perhaps the reason why folks who compose "new music theater" insist on calling their works opera is they are perhaps unaware of the term or for the marketing advantage. There is an advantage. Opera is a magic word. "Go to the Tableau"? -not bloody likely.

The fact is trained "sound artists" call themselves composers all the time. Yet its almost impossible for trained composers to compete as "sound artists." I digress....

As a composer who has written 3 serial operas, one comedy review, and one children opera, and applied 12 times to VOX and several of its previous incarnations and turned down, don't get me started on good scansion.

For me a long post.

Phil's page

Phil's opera blog

Phil's views on opera log in as a guest

It seems that the new group of inside bloggers at NMB are, to a person, bland as bland can be.   Yikes.  I can't wait to see how this develops... 

One new blogger after asking us our opinions and getting them, retorts with the sort of pat answers she learned from her teachers. That also showed us she was not really interested in our opinions.  She also got her facts wrong. Then she asks us to help her with her home work.  HHmmmm.

The newest one  is so bland that...

Well imagine the USA Today style , the "we all live in the best of all possible worlds, etc etc." 

 As long as they don't brag, name drop, show false modesty--oppsey to late on that one- or, most important, pretend that the opportunities they exclusively have are available to all of us.

no replies as of yet!! 

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6339

my 2.5 cents in
By philmusic

Frank, I always found that the most interesting experimental composers know how to notate as well.

Now you point out something interesting and perhaps a stereotype too. "Experimental music" by its very nature must be experimental. I'd say most of it is, on the other hand experimental music is mainstream for the visual art world. In most cases we see an external idea, given priority, is then used to manipulate sound.

Notated music on the other hand runs the gamut. In most cases a "musical idea" creates the work.

If its harder for notated music to be experimental that sounds like a good idea to me. Once you reach the point of incomprehensibility its all about the editorial anyway.

Phil Fried Phil's page

Phil's other page

___________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6329

I'll Say...
By philmusic

I agree Elaine, its also a matter of scale. We have few major opera companies that consistently perform new work. So not much new opera as opposed to New Music Theater -plenty of that performed each year.

So every time a new opera is premiered its an event. It just so happens that it tends to be the exact same event.

Die Soldaten was a huge success when it was performed in NY. Yet I doubt that the major American houses are looking for its follow up.

By the way Dan you are very fortunate to get this kind of experience. The MET used to invite literary types in. I don't know if they still do it.

Phil Fried Phil's opera page

  http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6305

2 cents plus
By philmusic

The problems of the histories of rock and roll are many but to name a few.

The industry promotes its own history based on success.

Commercial critics and writers support this false history.

Even among critics there is a schism between those who prefer text over music (3 chords and out) and those who accept more.

That promotion includes payola(buying and selling radio air time). So a lot of popular music was not chosen but sold.

To the industry the definition of a good song is a hit.

What becomes a hit can be manipulated.

That the inclusion of rock music curriculum in universities and colleges seems to occur when there is support or interest in getting support from the music industry itself.

That music, not just "rock music" is "the" social delineator in schools.

Phil Fried, who never taught this class, but if I did ...No Sonic Prejudice

Phil's rock and roll page

____________________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6308

By philmusic

"I think there should be more of a cultural awareness about the intrinsic educational quality of celebrity, as opposed to a disregard for this responsibility in order to make money..."

Joelle:

Part and parcel of celebrity is the yearly "choosing of the cause" that a celebrity will become a spokes person, contributor, etc etc etc. No doubt there are famous folks who authentically care about something other than themselves but for many of us it is galling to see issues we care about fronted by famous folks for which we have no respect at all. Sometimes there is also self serving agendas attached. Like more personal publicity for example.

Ok celebrity exists and is a powerful influence on American culture.

Perhaps one would be a fool to dismiss it or to think celebrity unnecessary.

I guess that's me.

Phil Fried

Famous Phil's Page

Good point Chris
By philmusic

"...why do they apply to so many Top 40 music artists?" ..."

I think its a question of ownership. How can you claim ownership of a manufactured success? What kind of life it that? What would that lead too? By the way performing in bars every night doesn't help much.

Others feel that the profession cynically encourages self destructive behavior as (besides publicity)it increases profits for the middle men and the corporate suits. Thought the pop music world is full of trends and fickle longevity is the key to a successful music career.

Stoned folks don't ask for more money.

Drugs kill.

Phil Fried

Phil's clean page

As long as you ask.
By philmusic

"...it is allot like any other collaborative work on manufactured products like medicine, computers, space ships, etc.".

Nope.

Not in my experience.

Phil Fried, a real person

__________________________

sorry for the confusion and thanks for asking
By philmusic

I never said music was a manufactured product. Rather I said that success in popular music could be manufactured.

Phil Fried

Phil's other page

I just don't get the alleged "ms. x " who I think is CD and a male at that.  She puts words in my mouth that I did not say and then expects me to defend them.

_____________

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6315

3 and 1/2 cents
By philmusic

True true, I do agree with John and you. I myself got tired of rejection and simply returned to my roots and started performing again. Started an ensemble as well.

On the other hand...

"... last time I checked we composers aren't entitled to a nice spread of useful, reasonably-priced opportunities."

Composers, as people, face the world with a sliding scale of moxie, money, position, and "shmoozzability" (not to mention talent). My opinion, or yours, has no bearing at all on the feelings of the composers who must address this issue everyday.

This is why organizations like AMC and the ACF and others exist.

Phil Fried Yet another Phil page

http://www.sequenza21.com/2010/03/monday-night-with-dr-phil/

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6303

welcome!
By philmusic

Dear Joelle:

Part of the process of becoming yourself is making your own choices and accepting the consequences. Once in a lifetime events of an artistic nature relevant to your work are not to be missed.

Unless one prefers regret.

Phil Fried Phil's low cal page

http://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/insidetheclassics/blog/2010/02/science-confirms-12-tone-music.html

I remember when "they," the experts, said that rock music caused juvenile delinquency. Further, I also remember Deep Purple being mentioned by the Guinness book of records as "the worlds loudest band."

I suppose going deaf is a small price to pay to for clarity.

Phil Fried, No Sonic Prejudice!

March 3, 2010 10:02 PM

 

 

 

Pessimistic? My foot!
By philmusic

Well as a Serial Composer nothing brightens my day like the fresh natural taste of squirrel.

My Fav's

Phil Fried, relatively happy since 1988!

Phil's not very Vegan Page

Tuesday, March 16, 2010, 12:18:13 AM

http://www.newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6283

digging deeper
By philmusic

Frank a casual look at any elementary band/choir/strings catalog will show 100's of original works. These are performed all over. Not to mention the college and university performance scene where 1000's of composers ply their trade. True in a way this is not public performance.

I was told in Grad School that to be placed in the "new music ghetto" was not such a good thing-strictly B team. Of course this was before the coming of the "popnewmusic" ensembles where sonic exclusivity and prejudice are the selling points. (Personally I prefer to be performed by generalists rather than specialists).

If you are speaking exclusively of the major institutions remember how comparatively hard it is for an American composer to have an international reputation V.S. a European composer. Further though we are constantly looking for the next Bernstein, technically America doesn't have official composers. Nor do we have the government that would fund those kind of high level performances for said composer.

Obviously vision and funding makes the difference. I must agree that the diversity of American new music is not reflected in its Major Institutions. As too whether more high level performance would change that is an open question.

Phil Fried, not running for office

Phil's page

Tuesday, March 02, 2010, 3:20:59 PM

 http://www.newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6286

Sadly, not every one is open minded.
By philmusic

Colin, back in the day I was aware of a number of musicologists and theorists (not to single them out), expert on a particular composer and their music, who privately detested said composer and their music. Does this mean their observations lack insight?

On the other hand a few only liked their subjects music and disliked all others. Did that interfere with them teaching general history or recent music?

Further I was also aware of more than a few musicians who could prove that composition stopped with Mozart. Even if they could, is this true?

Being a professional performer also means occasionally performing music one does not like--does that necessarily make the performance any less persuasive?

Anyway these H.G. Wells comments, which I have never seen before, reflect my own opinion that "like and dislike precede all" the rest is just tautology to make it work.

If art is greater than people that depends on the people and the art.

Phil Fried, who actually thinks that life is just high school all over again.

A Phil Page

http://www.newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6279

now that you mention it.
By philmusic

Perhaps this would be a good time to bring back smell-o-vision.

Phil Fried

Phil's fragrance free page -- now hypoallergenic!

Thursday, March 04, 2010, 10:23:00 AM

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6278

several interesting issues here--audience composers etc.

the directors art
By philmusic

Interesting Frank.

Its been said, and not just by me, that opera has become the directors art. Even here John Adams can't be mentioned without also including Peter Sellers. If only the Met instead of creating all those new productions of "warhorses" commissioned original music to go with them instead.

Of the several Manons for example I am unaware of any that actually follow whats in the book.

Though the Mayor's proclamation is heartening I'm afraid that Europe does the composer better service.

Phil's main Page

On second thought
By philmusic

Chris and Frank, perhaps we are looking at this backwards--

As composers it is our diversity that is our strength.

Phil Fried Phil's extra special page

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6270

What else is new?
By philmusic

This "opportunity" has some problems. In the first place "one day to work with the ensemble" simply would not be enough time. For me anyway.

Besides, the point is moot because as a serial composer this ensemble would never perform my music.

Phil Fried

Phil'd Page

___

 http://www.sequenza21.com/2010/02/20-composers-x-a-50-dollar-application-fee-a-self-funded-commission/comment-page-2/#comments

It’s a pity about all those lonely unsolicited scores, Chris. One might suppose there is another pile for the recommended composers. Anyway I’m not included in either pile. A serial composers chances aren’t very good these days.

Even with the best intentions: what you seem to be saying is this:

Your not cool, but if you pay our fee we will show you around the VIP room.

Philip Fried

On second thought

Hey there is an opportunity here–why doesn’t 8BB or another a new music ensemble do a marathon reading of every single work submitted?

Say 100 dollar fee but every work is performed with structured limitations of timing and instruments? recording extra???

that sounds a least win win!!!

Phil Fried stressing the positive.

naturally one expects more than sight reading.

Dennis, I think the entry fee should be $1000 , for each band member.

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6267

 this is a a sore point for many if as I say here is true:  then the new musicology is a "no neck bastard" and simply political speak. Again Pgblu makes an overbearing case obviously he is a goog guy.

Well...
By philmusic

I don't think Colin that you change intentionality by merely changing ones choice of words. Being fired or being downsized or rightsized amounts to the same thing.

Rather one should draw a distinction between what one says and one does.

Phil Fried, Phil's main page

Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:56:44 AM

US and Them

"McClary' work belongs to what we like to call New Musicology...."

Well I couldn't have put it better myself.

Phil Fried Phil's Page

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6262

Adorn? No!
By philmusic

No problem Pugblu--it seems that you were correct. Some folks around here have not read the book.

Phil Fried, talking tough as usual. Phil's Page

Cat People Unite!
By philmusic

My cat had a great success in Germany!

Don't get me started on Bunnies!

Phil Fried, will be in NY soon!

Friday, February 05, 2010, 5:38:36 PM

U asked for it!
By philmusic

Bun-Buns Behind Bars

This is one of my facebook albums, perhaps to see them you will have to friend me.

Come on in!

Phil Fried

Thursday, February 11, 2010, 9:00:13 PM

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6245

__________________________

http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6244

 I agree with Kyle here, yet I don't see the need to vilify those who don't agree with me.  It is just as easy to say uptown=elitist as to say downtown=snobs

anyway..2 cents
By philmusic

In my line of work learning is much simpler if folks can connect what they already know to what they are just about to find out. Program notes can help connect those dots.

Also there are many composers and sound artists who create works that are on the surface incomprehensible (I don't mean good or bad just monochromatic). So with out program notes or the editorial of the curator the audience just won't get it.

For myself, especially with my own vocal works, I want the music to speak for itself.

Finally I think its a big mistake to overlook the sentimental attachments that can only be created by program notes etc. Many careers have been built on just this.

Oddly, I was at a pre-concert talk once where the performer's speech made me hate the composer.

Go figure.

Phil Fried One of Phil's many pages

 some humor

Eureka I've got it!
By philmusic

So if I set my program notes to music, then I could set the program notes for my work, program notes set to music, to music.

Then I could set my program notes for the program notes for my other new work program notes to the program notes of my work program notes set to music, to music. Its only a hop, skip, and jump to set the program notes of the program notes of the program notes for my new work program notes to the program notes to the program notes to the program notes of my work program notes set to music, to music.

One question? Is this work programmatic?

Phil Fried, I know I know...

___________________

http://www.sequenza21.com/2010/01/tod-machover-on-music-technology/comment-page-1/#comment-22085

Who wants to blog about analog?

Whats with the NY Times and new music?

I suppose this harks back to the old Newsweek and Time magazines coverage from the 1960’s and 1970’s when the “Once Group” and the MN Opera” were used to provide the what is the latest strange thing the arts are up to these days?

Any publicity is good publicity. Right?

On the other hand one was under the impression that the folks who read those reviews and puff pieces were not the folks who attended the performances. With over 10,000 composers in the NYC area perhaps that’s no longer true.

In every case the subject of these NYT profiles are folks who present their ideas through music. They are also really really cool.

Simply put; the NYT presents composers for whom the music does not come first. Text, or in this case technology, based work is easier to explain in text of course.

During hard times its nice to know that stage machinery and set dressing can now be run by software alone.

American ingenuity-I take off my hat.

Phil Fried

 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=6220

oh well..
By philmusic

Music encompasses multiple ways to notate anything musical. Even the note "C". I suppose one has to draw a line between being "too fussy" and being accurate. This comes with experience.

Than again in many of popular music's melodic lines and raps there is a rhythmic complexity that is problamatic to notate. It's hard to read, yet not to hard to learn by rote.

Go figure.

Phil Fried, Skid Row University, Free Beer!!